A few tho0ughts on the original post and the above reactions.

Nothing pisses me off more than when I go to see a movie based on the IDEA (which is usually why I choose to see it) and they don’t go for all of the possibilities that the idea provides. It’s like, that’s it? That’s the best they could do? They managed to come up with that idea, or someone gave it to them, and that’s the best bullshit they could bring to the table?

Especially when the first 10 minutes are so great it sucks you into the world and you’re ready to be taken on the ride of a liftime and then not only one tire goes flat, but the whole car falls into a tar pit and sits there gurgling and spurting for 80 minutes until the tow truck comes.

I always try to pack so much build up into not only my first ten pages, but every page I write so that each page that turns, it gets faster and faster, and better and better. I feel that if for some reason I fail at that, then I have failed completely, so what’s the point?

I always try to start off with a very visual, thoroughly enticing first page with an ending line that forces them to turn, and then keep going as I write each page within my structure guidelines. I then try to flesh my protagonist in a way that there is no way the reader is unable to not only care for the character, but not want to let them slip out of their new world; thus creating a new ’status quo’ as Unk says, for that reader. I want their own real world to change, and the way they look at it as well.

Man this is making me want to get back to my screenplay…

Anyways,

One more comment here about competition. I recently left a writing group in my city because I came to find that the other members were all mostly in the group for more of a hobby than wanting to strive for a career as a working, top-notch writer. It was hard to give honest feedback to others who would almost cry when you would tell them the truth that the script was not really good or there were problems that needed to be fixed, or it didn’t even look like a screenplay. As well it sucked to get feedback from people who all they knew to say was, Hey, good job, that was awesome, you seem to know what you’re doing. I am always looking for others who can CHALLENGE me to become a better writer, to rise to the occasion, and to create the best damn screenplay in history. That is the competition I want, and that is the competition that makes you better. Because if you’re not trying to write the best damn screenplay ever written, then why are you wasting your time?

My two cents… or maybe four.

- Scottie screenwriter.

The only comments that don’t make it here are the porn spam — of which I get several hundred daily. Everything else goes up. The only time a comment is held for moderation and this is done automatically, is when somebody includes a link somewhere within their comment OR the person leaving the comment is doing so for the first time. Since most spam comments include links, I have the blog set to queue these for my approval.

Every once in a while however (as with yours today), somebody’s comments continuously end up being held for moderation until after I’ve approved several of them. Haven’t quite figured that out except that maybe you have some word in your comment that the spam plugin identifies as possible spam.

Anyway, I agree — we pretty much agree on most discussions I think. True — STORY is conflict and resolution. Structure is beginning, middle, and end and the only real difference TODAY are the details.

However, I think there’s so much to be discussed, learned, and evolve within those details that the details themselves are just as important. Hell, even MORE important when it comes down to writing YOUR screenplay.

But yeah… As I said before… Story and structure are basically the same when looking at the big picture. We agree on that. Even so, it’s the details that separates the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Unk

I also believe you and I are probably closer to our beliefs than some of our posts may indicate. It’s hard to get detailed enough sometimes without that immediate response to make the connection, but by reading your posts, I agree with just about everything. The tweaks I mention are just that – tweaks – that I believe you could live with as well.

My comment about story, structure and screenwriting being the same is this:

1) Story is still – introduce a character, put him in a tree, throw rocks at him, get him down. It’s been that way since we scratched drawings on cave walls. What differs now are the details.

2) Structure – While there are many methods (3 act, 5 act, sequencing, etc.) for telling your story, it still comes down to a beginning, a middle and an end. They don’t even have to be in that order (see Quentin Tarantino). There are certain expectations an audience has for a story, things that we as humans innately do when we create a story. The craft of screenwriting is making those innate events the best they can be – clear, engaging, etc.

3) Screenwriting has always been, and will for the forseable future – be a blue print for a film. While many of us read them for enjoyment, they are unfulfilled if they do not evolve into a film. Some of the things writers do have changed (master scene, camera angles, EVERYTHING IN CAPS, styles have changed over the years, as have tones (while some of the movies from the 40’s-60’s may have been great, I personally am unable to connect with many of them because of the difference in ideals from then and now).

I’ve found that once my short term leave has ended, I don’t have as much time to surf the screenwriting blogs as I used to, but I always come back here for sure. The information is always engaging and the comments are almost always honest and in the spirit of passing on knowledge (at least the ones that make it, anyway).

and just like that…I have my idea for the latest blog entry :D Thank you Muse.

I usually make the pics if I have the time unless I find a perfect one as-is…

I guess I look at this stuff a little differently… Years ago, it sometimes took me a couple or three reads of a book or chapter in a book OR even reading yet another fucking book just to clarify something to me that I had previously read.

In fact, a very long time ago, I got into the habit of reading about some aspect of screenwriting and then making notes both on paper and voice recorded as to what that information REALLY MEANT TO ME PERSONALLY as a screenwriter.

I found out that my own opinion always differed slightly (as it should) from the gurus and authors and that by combining ALL this information, I was FINALLY able to see a much bigger picture when it comes to story.

I AM of the opinion that both story and screenwriting structure has in fact changed and evolved. It is what it is works for the big, overall picture I think but to compete in this business, I think one has to get a lot more intimate than that.

Often, it’s simply that slightly different perspective on any screenwriting element that will cause someone to GET IT and as I’ve said before, where else can we talk about this stuff?

I have a lot of screenwriting friends and trust me, none of them want to talk screenwriting. I’m kinda boring that way because I always want to talk about it. Which is why I do this… More than anything else, it keeps me on my toes… Keeps me sharp. Makes me keep thinking about this stuff so that it is always in the forefront of my brain as I write myself.

I have written about stuff here on the site that has even surprised myself and given me a deeper understanding of what I do and even more — has caused me to go back to my current writing and tweak as per my own fucking opinion.

I think we tend to get pigeon-holed into a certain way of thinking about all this stuff i.e., starting as late into a scene as possible…

Geez. I think I’ve read that in every book and article as well as heard in every workshop and seminar and while I agree with that premise when it comes to a completed draft suitable for submission, it just ain’t always true for everyone to write a scene like that.

Yet it seems that everyone pushes basics like that so when some people attempt to pull that off, they often end up with a scene that lacks the depth they could have had if they had simply written it happening just before and just after and then combined, tweaked, and edited.

And that’s just ONE topic for discussion.

I know I have my own version of structure that differs from anything I’ve seen in a book or gotten from a guru’s class… In fact, I don’t think any guru has ever given me their own version of structure in their class or workshop… In fact, they always go back to basic 3 Act Structure which on the face of it — obviously works.

But it sure as hell doesn’t work for everyone. I had to tweak my thinking and opinion on structure until it worked for me. So while all the major beats are included, I know for a fact that I’ve added a few more elements in there that I’ve gotten from my own research and observation of reading screenplays and watching movies.

So while our opinions may not be EARTH SHATTERING, they suffice to help sharpen my own skills just a little more and a little more as I go. The comments and discussion help a little more and a little more.

I think anything that triggers some serious analysis on the part of the screenwriter is definitely worthwhile which is why I’ve always liked reading your blog…

While you may THINK you weren’t contributing anything worthwhile, I ALWAYS got something out of your analyses of any given topic on the subject.

And I thank you for that…

Unk

I truly admire your efforts to continually post this information. As I said last, I’d gotten into a mode of “do we really need to regurgitate this stuff anymore?” I mean, it’s not like Story has changed any in 2,000 years. It’s not as if Screenwriting structure has evolved (it is what it is). All the information is out there, now in volumes of books as well as countless html pages. But, I don’t get the hate mail you do, and I can see from many of the comments, that some folks are either just new, or just haven’t “gotten it” yet.

Everytime I get caught up with you, I slack off or get busy and come back and there’s a month’s worth of reading :D

Gotta think up a new column now…

Drank the rest of the bottle…

Ouch.

Josh,

You always have a home here for your ranting and thread stealing… LOL.

Ryan R.,

What I hate even more than SEEING derivative is READING derivative because there’s just no excuse for it. If I read your script and most of what it does is make me think about some other movie, you’ve failed.

Not YOU you… LOL. The general you. I know you know that but with all my hate mail, I figure that little disclaimer might keep me from getting a few more because of this thread of which I have gotten plenty.

Probably from people who don’t like to compete. I did get one however, from a disgruntled Mommy who tried to convince me that competition is what has made this world EVIL.

I would tend to agree… That the world is generally evil, that is… LOL.

dave,

Your thoughts are always welcome… Miss your blog. I know it’s still up… I just miss not reading regular posts. LOL.

But who am I to criticize? Just another screenwriting punk… At least that’s what my fans tell me.

Unk

I’d like to address this comment though: Why is Die Hard so great? Take away the action and you still have a fantastic movie. Many of the conflicts of these characters are inner conflicts that make us feel part of the situation. Action was just added.

It’s like falling in love. At some point, you’ll just understand what makes Die Hard so great.

For some reason (IMHO) a great script just has the ability to keep you reading. Die Hard, Unforgiven and others I can’t think of – you read, and the writing is smooth and the characters engaging, and you’re getting all this, what seems like small, fluff stuff, and before you know it, you’re 15 pages in…well, now you like the characters enough to want to see what the hell is going to happen, so you read a little more and at 25 or so, you’re thinking OMG! Now I have to keep going… and before you know it, you’re 60 pages in and not about to stop.

Your first 10 pages doesn’t have to be action or, for me, anything spectacular, but it has to be written so cleanly and so concisely that you can squeeze in a ton of information, voice, style and story “hints” that the reader can’t stop reading.

Great stuff, Unk~!

Yeah, I haven’t really thought about it but that pinpoints that little voice in my head that starts nagging while watching a movie that I feel is an emulation of a better movie. It’s like when you see a kid draw a picture of his favorite superhero. The drawing is commendable but there’s only one
Sponge Bob. I think those kind of movies really show their gears when our aim, I think, is to make them invisible.

“While I agree that the final draft of your script SHOULD be composed of scenes that start as late as possible into that scene (same goes for STORY), my experience with new writers, old writers, novice writers, and pro writers is that when they attempt to do this in their draft to BEGIN WITH, they often leave out some amazing stuff.”

So true. It’s always better to have a little fat to begin with because you can see exactly where it meets the meat. Not only this, to reiterate what you’re saying, when you paint outside the lines you make new unexpected discoveries. And in acting terms, it’s always better to go over the top, above beyond reach, b/c you can always restrain. However, you don’t shoot for that moon, you don’t know where that ceiling is – you miss out on potential.

You can never have too much material when you’re trying to achieve taut lines.

To be honest, I didn’t know all I had to do was click on the word comments to read the comments. Yet another cool corridor to explore.

The blog rocks Unk.